Interview with Jon Sobrino

Given Jesuit theologian Jon Sobrino’s recent investigation by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I think it may be worthwhile to post the interview Mev did with him in El Salvador in 1993.

Poverty and Riches/3

In addition to making it a priority to spend time with Ann in Guarjila, Mev also traveled to the University of Central America in San Salvador where the Jesuit intellectuals had been murdered in November 1989 by military trained at the U.S. Army School of the Americas. Like hundreds, if not thousands by now, of North Americans, Mev had a profound experience visiting the memorial room that had books and photographs documenting the Jesuit assassinations. For Mev, looking at those photos was a heartrending, moving and inspiring experience. At that time, theologian Jon Sobrino popped in and offered hospitality to the North American pilgrims. Sobrino kindly gave a tour of the rose garden in memory of the dead. Mev also got some time alone to ask Sobrino, a native Spaniard, to reflect on the nature of his fidelity.

Mev: What inspired your own faith commitment?

Jon: I entered the Society of Jesus in 1956, at 18. At the time, it was a response to a call of God, but at that moment the poor weren’t very present in my consciousness. Twenty years ago I moved to El Salvador. What brought me forward were the tiny miracles I saw in front of me, the poverty of the people made me say, “We have to change this reality.”

And, in my case, I came here after Fr. Ellacuría and Fr. Rutilio Grande arrived. They killed Rutilio soon after I arrived, then I lived with Ignacio Ellacuría for 16 years! They began a road that I started to follow, as a priest and professionally as a theologian. I gradually began to interiorize this commitment. There was no one dramatic moment — it was simply a matter of living in this world and trying to do good. But then began the bombs at the UCA and the murders. Then one has to make an option and really define oneself.

Mev: What does the option for the poor mean for people who, like me, are born into a country or a class of privilege?

Jon: You mean a person like me! Simply put, this option can have various expressions. One of them is to live with the poor, but there are few who do that and it isn’t what the poor most need. The option for the poor means to make an effort to see reality from where the poor are. Concretely, we must put our resources at the service of the poor. You know, in our country one can’t be a priest without also gaining prestige, and this is a form of “wealth,” as are buildings, books, intellectual development, etc. The point is that we put all of these riches at the service of the poor. This can be done in an immediate form or in a structural manner.

Mev: One of my American friends working in El Salvador said, “I am one of the oppressors because I have a refrigerator.” She considers herself rich because she has material things.

Jon: In a country of such poverty, one can certainly feel this way. But I feel that in a country like this poverty for us is practically impossible! We are not poor. What I ask of us is a bit of austerity. And then, we should use those resources we do have at the service of the poor. But I don’t have any scruples about having a refrigerator or TV — on a TV we see the news and learn what’s going on. Sometimes on Sundays, I relax a little bit. This doesn’t bother me.

Monsignor Romero was not poor — he knew this clearly. But he was austere. He lived very simply and modestly. But the nuns brought him an orange juice every day! In our country, that is not poor.

Mev: Do you think that our strongest connection with the poor is in the circumstances that we do not opt for, our own personal sufferings, such as loneliness?

Jon: I would formulate this differently. Loneliness for me is worse than an option for the poor. Solidarity with the poor is working and being with them so that they stop being poor. And how do we feel, I who am not poor? I feel most like the poor not when I go without a car, but in the most existential struggles of life, such as loneliness.

But I distinguish between poverty and human suffering. Poverty is one human situation that produces much suffering. The poor suffer. We see this in famine victims in Africa. There is also much suffering that is not from poverty. What matters to me is to say that we have solidarity in our struggles, but my suffering is very distinct from the poverty that poor people suffer.

Mev: Gustavo Gutiérrez writes that spirituality comes before theology. What spirituality sustains you in your life work?

Jon: I am 54 years old and many things have already happened in my life. For me every day is more simple. More than anything, what sustains me is love. I’ve received love and affection from simple people, who don’t know me but animate me. But to speak more specifically, Rutilio Grande and Ignacio Ellacuría were good people who truly loved. I felt from Ellacuría not only our friendship, but I saw that he truly loved people. Not just the love of friendship and tenderness which we experience at a personal level, but the sweeping current of love in history.

I feel I also belong to this current of love in history. There are also currents of hate in history. But I have seen these strong currents of love coming from other people to me, but I also have been able to love other people. This is personal but also structural. This is a strong source of meaning.

Also, when I see love, I see hope. To have hope in this world is absolutely absurd! In spite of that absurdity, we have hope. Now, to put all of this in a context of Christian faith, the mystery of Christian faith is like a reserve of love, hope, tenderness, solidarity, and although history negates this, it still journeys on!

In other words, like Micah says, “Acting justly, loving tenderly, walking humbly with God.” This, for me, is the truth, the fundamental truth. We live as well as we can, but I try to live by this.